In Episode 4 of The Holistic Nutritionists Podcast, Natalie Douglas and Kate Callaghan discuss the symptoms, causes and cures of Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS).

• What is IBS
• Causes of IBS that need to be investigated
• Functional testing to help with diagnosis
• Foods to heal your gut
• Supplements to heal your gut
• Lifestyle factors to heal your gut

• Are you looking for 1-to-1 support and a step-by-step healing process to overcome your chronic gut health issues? Take a look at my signature program, “Gut Rescue” today.
• App – Headspace 

Natalie K. Douglas  0:02  

Hello, and welcome to The Holistic Nutritionists Podcast. My name is Natalie Bourke, holistic dietitian and nutritionist from healthbywholefoods.com.au. And with me as always is my co-host Kate from theholisticnutritionist.com. Kate, what’s happening?

Kate Callaghan  0:19  

Oh boy.

Oh, this is this is a second recording everyone that’s listening just because just because I’m bored, and I’ve been at home all day.

And so what’s happening with me I’m working from home today as Olivia is in daycare. So, I get a couple of days to myself to really cram everything in.

And I go a little bit crazy at the same time.

Natalie K. Douglas  0:45  

Yes, apparently, apparently become different characters. But that’s okay. Why not.

Kate Callaghan  0:53  

Mix it up a bit? What could happen in the next half an hour?

ServiceNow.

Natalie K. Douglas  1:02  

Oh, gosh, and anything else been happening? So how have you launched your program?

Kate Callaghan  1:08  

Yes, I’ve launched my healing hypothalamic a mineral e course this week. So we’re on day two. Now I have 34 amazing women, and I’m so excited to help them on the healing journey of the next eight weeks, it’s really actually

more excited than I thought it would be. I feel really at peace with it all and

really

grateful that they’ve put their trust in me as well.

Natalie K. Douglas  1:34  

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s such a empowering thing as well, to be able to help people through a journey that you’ve been through yourself, and also to see them have their, you know, our that. That’s it. That’s why moments and getting pushing through those barriers, especially when it comes to, you know, a condition that definitely has a big mental aspect to it. So I think they couldn’t be couldn’t have a better person helping them out. And I’m really excited to hear about the results that they get from working with you. And I’m really excited for you to, you know, launch another one in the future because I’m sure there are plenty of people that could benefit from it.

Kate Callaghan  2:16  

Thanks, Natalie, what’s been happening with you?

Natalie K. Douglas  2:20  

Well, apart from starting my own little meditation routine, which has been really cool. So I’ve been using an app called headspace and also a nice little towel that my actually my work colleagues got me for my birthday, which is kind of like my meditation mat and my brother got me some some essence and some lemon the essence No, not essence, incense didn’t get me. But you should have got the essence. So we got me incense and I also got a salt lamp from my mom. So my family in the universe was telling me to meditate. So did and fame really, really helpful. And apart from that, like you just getting through work and helping people become healthy, happy little Vegemite, without the Vegemite. That’s about it. Really. Yeah. And I guess, today we’re actually talking about something that I see a lot of in practice, and I’m sure you see a lot of as well, which is IBS. So today, I guess our aim is to give you a bit of a definition about what IBS is and what could potentially be causing it. So before we start, I will read out a little disclaimer. So the advice given in this podcast is not intended to provide medical advice or to take the place of medical advice or treatment for your primary health care physician. The facts and information offered are based on a combination of scientific evidence, clinical practice, experience and personal experience. So I was actually quite curious to see what the actual medical definition of IBS was because in my opinion, and with my clients, I see it more as a symptom, not a condition. Anyway, so I looked it up and the definition I’m going to read for you is air to prevent irritable bowel syndrome is a common intestinal condition characterized by abdominal pain and cramps, changes in bowel movements. ghastliness, bloating, nausea and other symptoms, there is no cure for IBS, much about the condition remains unknown or fully understood, have a dietary changes drugs and psychological treatment, often able to eliminate or substantially reduce the symptoms. So to me, and I’m sure it’s the same for UK when a patient walks in and says I’ve got IVF I think okay, but YUF cool for an awesome that because I have no idea. But you know that that’s my job to add job to figure out. And there is usually always a why it’s just a matter of finding out exactly what that is because I just, I don’t feel like you just you just have an ear to bass and no reason whatsoever there is there is always an underlying cause. And it can be, you know, a bit of a chasing your tail situation, in some cases, if you don’t go and say someone who knows what they’re talking about straightaway, but there is always an answer. And there’s lots of avenues that you can go down and investigate. So I guess to I won’t be able to go into detail of each thing I’m going to say in terms of what could be a cause. But it’s really important that people are aware that these are the possible things that could be causing the IBS symptoms, and therefore seeking out a practitioner who is aware of these and can eat a test to them, either using functional testing or using taking clinical history and symptoms and getting the help that they that they need and that he’s actually available. So a few people causes of IBS and feel free to add any in case I forgot many that I seen practice a fever so that small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, leaky gut, this viruses, parasite infections, or yeast overgrowth gluten sensitivity or celiac disease, emotional, emotional, physical or mental stress IBD, which is inflammatory bowel disease, taking the pill, a lot of antibiotic use, or food intolerances such as format sensitivity or just other food intolerances that you may have. However, in my opinion, usually the food intolerances and the format sensitivity type situation is again, not a root cause it’s a it’s a manifestation or a symptom of something like leaky gut or dis viruses or a number of the other things I mentioned. Yep.

Kate Callaghan  6:58  

A lot of that. You , yeah.

definitely. And the only other thing I would add would probably be and it’s probably I don’t

know, we don’t really focus on it, because it seems so glaringly obvious, but not significant, would be lack of mechanical digestion. And that’s just fancy terms of saying lack of chewing, and oh, yeah, Russian girls. So not actually sitting down to a proper meal, not chewing your meal properly, so you’re not digesting your food properly. And, yeah, that can cause issues with downstream digestion. And I guess, on that stomach acid production can also cause IBS or contribute to IBS. And as can H. pylori, which is infection in the stomach, which you’ve had issues with H. pylori, I haven’t you know,

Natalie K. Douglas  7:44  

I certainly did have a hatch pylori, and it was horrible. I had it like to give you guys some insight. So I had a pretty bad case of it. So my symptoms were pretty obvious. But actually, at that time, I had no idea because I wasn’t really informed about any of these. So I had really bad breath, I had to be constipation isn’t Slack, sorry, guys, I’m just going to be really honest to severe constipation, really smelly gas actually had blackberries to towards the end of it so that for me, it was pretty clear, something’s going wrong. But I’ve had other patients that maybe they have a bit of abdominal pain or discomfort. But really apart from that their main symptoms are not to be to the gut. So they might have poor skin that hasn’t improved we treatment, or it might be they’ve got really severe brain fog or things like that. So it’s important to keep an open mind when you are looking for what’s going on in the gut and not just looking at symptoms that are, I guess, got specific because there is a connection to gut health that goes to skin goes to your brain, your whole mind, that pretty much isn’t the system in the body that the gut doesn’t affect. Would you agree with that? Kate?

Kate Callaghan  9:06  

Absolutely. I have a whole module, we focus solely on gut health in one of the weeks in the healing, a check equals, it’s that important with hormone balance, and absolutely everything in the body. Definitely.

Natalie K. Douglas  9:18  

Yeah, and it’s, it’s, I think it’s becoming a bit more out there. But I guess we are becoming a bit more out there, there is also a lot of confusion and a lot of anxiety that goes on to patients that have tried a lot of things and they’re getting told, you know, do this, eat this, don’t eat this supplement with this. And it can be really confusing. And that’s where I think that testing, not guessing. So actually using functional testing, and also getting someone to help you out to actually develop this article specific for you. Because it can be so overwhelming to treat yourself. Even as a practitioner, I know Kate, you would agree that whenever there’s something going on in our bodies, usually we will if it’s if it’s something that’s not simple will usually outsource it, because it’s so hard to remain objective in that kind of situation. So don’t be too Don’t be, I guess, too proud or anything to get some help and get the help that you need it particularly with, with complex issues. And like I said, I think personally that it’s worth spending the money on getting tested, if you had a bit of a run around and trying lots of different things and, and nothing has, has really helped. I’ve actually used a company in Australia called research nutrition. And this, I’m sure there are other companies out there, but I use them and they they actually do a really good comprehensive stool analysis. And that’s done through a company called doctor’s daughter in the US. So I know that in Australia, to order the research nutrition test, you do have to be under the care of a practitioner. However, there are plenty of us out there. And I know Kate that you can order test. And and you know, so seek out someone who, who can do that for you so that you can get to the bottom of it as fast as possible

Kate Callaghan  11:16  

about what they can find in a stool analysis in Paris intelligence. Yeah, just

Natalie K. Douglas  11:21  

definitely. So I guess there are different levels of testing that you can do in terms of how much is actually investigated, at the highest level. So in a comprehensive stool analysis, usually they are testing for yeast overgrowth, they’re testing for good bacteria, they’re testing for bad bacteria, they also testing for compensable bacteria. So they’re bacteria that aren’t necessarily good, and aren’t necessarily bad. But if they’re in high enough numbers, then they do become problematic. It also test for parasites. So lots and lots of different parasites, not just a small handful, but quite a number. I’m not actually sure the number, but I know it is very comprehensive. It also tests for levels of short chain fatty acids, which are important to I guess, the nourishing your gut lining and ensuring your cells that line your gut have enough fuel to grow and remain healthy. It tests for marketing for inflammatory bowel disease. And it tests for digestion of carbohydrates, fats, and proteins as well. So it gives you a really, really comprehensive insight into what is going on in the gut. One thing that it does not test for is his favor, because he just in the small intestine. So when you’re doing that comprehensive stool analysis, he’s giving you a picture of what is going on in the small intestine is giving you a picture of what’s going in the large intestine, sir, favorite testing is done through breath testing through electronic process. It’s not a completely foolproof test, it’s, it still has its drawbacks, and it’s not 100% accurate. However, it is definitely, I guess, a tool in the toolkit of practitioners who are dealing with in trading conditions. So that bit of an insight into the testing, quite comprehensive

Kate Callaghan  13:27  

it is and it’s really, really valuable information. And it is expensive. But if you do have these chronic digestive issues, you will probably save money in the long run by finding out what’s going on, as opposed to trying a whole different

lot of things and getting nowhere.

Natalie K. Douglas  13:44  

Yeah, I say that time and time again. I mean, you say people come in and this, they’ve spent, you know, sometimes thousands of dollars on saying different practices and getting a whole bunch of sophomores, they’ve gone through the stress of trying really restrictive diets that haven’t really provided much relief. And yet no one has actually gone in and and tested. And I think that that’s where you can actually save the money. Like Kate said, it can be a bit of an expense in the beginning, but it saves you money in the long run. And it also saves you a lot of time and exhaustion. Like it’s I know myself, I went through so many practice or practitioners trying to figure out what was wrong, but I was just exhausted, I was just tired of telling my story to always different people and ending up in the same space. So it wasn’t until I got testing that I actually started to make some progress. So don’t underestimate the power of testing. But also know that it takes a good practitioner as well to interpret that test and, and act accordingly. It’s not, it’s not kind of a call for you guys to go out and just order it yourself and go right now I’m going to try and treat myself because sometimes there are multiple things that needs to be put in placing a strategic way to get you the best results the fastest.

Kate Callaghan  15:04  

Good advice.

Natalie K. Douglas  15:06  

Thanks. Okay. And the other thing I guess we wanted to talk about is, let’s say you don’t have the gut symptoms, or you’re not someone who you really suspect that there’s a parasite, maybe you’ve just got some general, less than ideal gut health. And you really want to look to optimize that for the purpose of your overall health. Maybe you want to improve your skin, your hormones, just your general feeling of bloating or getting rid of that bloating. So, Kate, what I guess, what are some foods that people should be both including and avoiding to optimize gut health and digestion?

Kate Callaghan  15:51  

Great questions. So in terms of treatment of not so severe gut issues, we can focus more on food and supplements, things that we should probably mention, when it does come to if you find out that you do have parasites or CBOE or something like that, it may be a case of you need to go down the route of antibiotics. And it’s kind of one of the very small cases that you’ll find me suggesting that you need antibiotics. And

they can and necessary sometimes can be in yesterday sometimes.

Natalie K. Douglas  16:24  

Okay, I would agree with that.

Kate Callaghan  16:26  

Yeah, and it’s not for long term. It’s just kind of to get rid of the bad bugs and get on with it. And you can, yeah, they’re awesome natural healing protocols for things like CBOE out there. But in my opinion, they’re not as effective and they can take a lot longer. Would you agree?

Natalie K. Douglas  16:44  

Yeah, I would like this. I think particularly for parasites, it’s, it’s really hard when you’ve got a really strong parasite infection to knock it over with just antimicrobials. I think that there’s something to be said for a combination of both anabolic and antimicrobial therapy. And also just making sure that you’ve got that gut feeling going on as soon as, as soon as possible. with fever, there are, there is some evidence to say that the natural treatment is as effective as the antibiotic treatment. But again, it can take longer, and it really depends how bad the CBOE is, like what kind of happening. So I would say that antibiotics are, there is a place to them. And I think that when you get those results, and you and you work with your practitioner, you’ll be able to see the the benefit versus cost to make a decision on that basis.

Kate Callaghan  17:38  

Definitely, definitely. Okay, so in terms of gut healing foods, and first of all, I think you need to identify what foods if any, you’re intolerant to and across the board, I would probably recommend taking out gluten, at least for a short period of time. And 30 days, at least if you have digestive issues, gluten can cause the activation of a protein called zoelen in your small intestine, which can make your gut lining more permeable. And that’s what net said when, when she mentioned leaky gut, that’s kind of what leaky gut is. So that allows foreign particles to get through that shouldn’t get through into your bloodstream and kind of cause havoc with the immune system and and create inflammation, all sorts of issues that you don’t want to say. So first place would be gluten free. And that means not just substituting for gluten free breads, pastas, and cereals, but I would eliminate all of those refined grains all together. And I would then look at potentially going low format. And if you know that you react to format foods. I’m not going to go through all the format foods because that could take foot the basically what are their they’re a collection of short chain carbohydrates, and sugar alcohols found in foods naturally or as food additives. So Fahd maps for mental Lego di Mondo and poly Oles. So they’re all different types of carbohydrates, all different types of sugars. And basically, you’re if you’re intolerant to Fahd maps, then your body doesn’t deal well with these types of foods. And they basically ferment and that creates gas and bloating and constipation and or diarrhea, and really good app that I like to use. If you are going to go to the low fat map diet, I would recommend working with a health practitioner. But in conjunction with the low flood map, diet app by Monash University, so Monash University are kind of at the forefront of all the research when it comes to flood maps. So definitely check that out. If you think that flood maps could be any issue, or you have any thoughts on maps?

Natalie K. Douglas  19:53  

Yeah, no, I actually think that I often use low format diet as kind of like providing someone with relief while we do the healing. So I think that that’s a really good, a really good strategy to you. So going like Kate said, for a short period of time, eliminating those two, you can get rid of a few of the symptoms and also, Doc any bad bacteria continuing to grow while you work on actually healing your gut and putting some more good bacteria in there.

Kate Callaghan  20:22  

Definitely. A few other things that you might want to try experimenting with out will definitely sugar sugar can feed a yeast and can feed a bacterial overgrowth. So definitely taking sugar out and refined carbohydrates as well. And vegetable oils and trans fats I would take those out, they’re really inflammatory on the system. So remove those focus on healthy fats, such as coconut oil, which naturally has those antiviral antibacterial properties and, and butter, which can help to nourish the intestinal lining and through helping with production of bt Eric acid. And but also always boylan’s a healthy fat, just steering clear of more of those refined processed fats if possible. And alcohol, I would probably minimize for at least a month, if not take it out altogether. And yes, red wine has its health benefits. But alcohol in itself can be really detrimental for the health of the bacteria and the health of the gut lining. Would you agree?

Natalie K. Douglas  21:22  

Yeah, I do. And any one of my patients that’s got got issues, I usually recommend to stay clear that until we’ve got a doc that is that has been healed and can handle that it’s not a case of you know, not ever, it’s not now is your priority to heal your gut.

Kate Callaghan  21:41  

and legumes potentially taking legumes out for 30 days. And because they can cause issues with digestion sometimes, but later on trying to add them back in, you know, if they’re well prepared to preparing those beans, lentils and chickpeas properly and experimenting with them. Because including them in a small quantity can actually be beneficial to your gut health if you tolerate them. So when it comes to just of health and gut healing, it’s really a lot of experimentation, a lot of touch and go and really listening to your body and not just listening to what someone else tells you you should be doing. You need to if touching guard, and it can be kind of to see forward one step back. And so yeah, aggression need to be really, really patient with it. In terms of foods to include, for gut healing, we do want to nourish the bacteria in our digestive system. So we’re thinking about fermented foods. And when I say fermented foods, I’m talking about sauerkraut, kimchi, kombucha, other fermented veggies big ass full fat yogurt, if you tolerate it, if you don’t, again, that might be another one that you need to remove for 30 days. But if you tolerate it that can be a good source of beneficial bacteria and getting a variety in and depending on how severe yoga issues you might not be able to tolerate something like sauerkraut with the cabbage in it so then maybe staying with Sauerkraut juice or things like beak Avast, which is fermented beetroot juice, basically, it’s a beautiful pink color. It’s wonderful.

It’s really pretty. It’s really pretty. don’t taste

too bad either.

Yeah,

pretty nice. It’s kind of anyway, it’s probably not as nice as it looks. It looks really pretty. No, it’s not like a creamy smell it pop.

Natalie K. Douglas  23:34  

Make makes a good photo.

Kate Callaghan  23:36  

It does make you good. looks great on Instagram. And that’s all

that matters a lot, right?

Natalie K. Douglas  23:42  

Life priority. Come on guys.

Exactly. Anyway, back to feeding the good bacteria. So

Kate Callaghan  23:49  

they’re gonna be your sources of beneficial bacteria. If you can’t get those and you might want to look at getting a good quality probiotic supplement and soil based organisms are really good. Get if you’re unsure about that, go and speak to a health practitioner with probiotics. I do find that quality matters. So you may need to spend a little bit more as opposed to going to the supermarket and getting some cheapo probiotic. off the shelf.

Natalie K. Douglas  24:16  

That’s 995 in the bin.

Kate Callaghan  24:19  

Don’t go and get one of those

Natalie K. Douglas  24:20  

dodgy it’s black my pet. It’s like a pet peeve I have with the like 995 fish oils for 200 capsule here. Take six a day. fish that Sorry, I’ll stop. Don’t take take fish on the table. Like from someone

Kate Callaghan  24:36  

anyway. flushed down the toilet.

Natalie K. Douglas  24:39  

Yeah,

Kate Callaghan  24:40  

yeah. Anyway.

Okay, so we’re feeding the bacteria back to prebiotics. Probiotics, and prebiotics are food for your bacteria. So you’re getting the good bacteria in with the fermented foods, then you need to feed them. Don’t Starve the things that you’re putting in your body. So if you’re following a really low calorie diet, then you’re probably going to be stabbing your good bacteria. And so getting into Yeah, good quality carbohydrates, sweet potatoes, potatoes, parsnips, fresh fruit, and getting some resistant starch in there. So green bananas and banana flower and

what’s up thing I’ve had a blank asparagus, cold potato didn’t called potato I’m thinking of

artichoke, it was in my mind trick. Ah, yes, I mean garlic, all wonderful. So really focusing on getting a range of fruits and vegetables in your diet, a whole range of cooked veggies, raw veggies, mixing it up. So you are going to be feeding beneficial bacteria as well. And other foods would be bone broth, that’s going to be rich in gelatin which is really nourishing for the digestive system and for your joints. And if you like now I’m not going to make bone broth. Another option is to shame on you,

shame on you right away.

The other option is to get some good quality gelatin and all collagen hydro isolate. And the brand I like is called Great Lakes beef gelatin or Great Lakes collagen Hydra isolate and the gelatin will gel collagen hydro so like Warren so you can throw them to pretty much anything smoothies, soups, whatever you want into any drinks for you. And you’re good to go.

Natalie K. Douglas  26:24  

And Muslim.

Yeah, I think that’s probably just a note on that. There’s another company in Australia called gelatin Australia that do a really good gelatin as well so she can’t get your hands on great like actually like really like jealous in Australia too. So go for it. So yeah, I could Yes, so one doesn’t dissolve in like in cold water. However, if you are making some treats then go for it. Or you can actually dissolve in hot water

up just a note so that you’re not like they told me

just a blob at the top.

Caution.

Kate Callaghan  27:05  

Perfect and the other option is to eat meat on the bone. So things like drumsticks, man Shanks, beef ribs, slow cooked are wonderful and having a munch on the bone. So you getting that and the ligaments and joints and calendula parts which are going to help nourish and yeah, supplements Why? We spoke about good quality probiotics and sometimes some glucosamine but I would prefer to get that from bone broth really. And gelatin. I guess you could count as a supplement. Other ones? Yeah. Other ones. I mean, yeah, I’ll glutamine can be really helpful for healing the digestive system. Magnesium can be remind

Natalie K. Douglas  27:48  

Oh, yeah, magnesium. Yeah.

Kate Callaghan  27:51  

Especially if you have a lot of constipation. Sorry, if you have constipation, dominant, IBS.

Natalie K. Douglas  27:57  

giving these Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And the other one I said was that Kumasi philosophy can be helpful, but make sure that you said that actually helps increase the creator your idea, which is your main guest fence line in your in your gut or your first one two cents in your gut. So that can be really helpful but caution, work with a practitioner and start low on that dose because not everyone tolerate a high dose of saccharomyces velocity. So just to caution around that, but again, it’s always best to work with a practitioner to develop to develop that kind of protocol. k in terms of, I guess, just before we sign off a few other things that people can do. So my thought was a bit of stress reduction, because that can definitely contribute to you guys, you. So what’s your favorite form of stress reduction,

Kate Callaghan  28:48  

my favorite to recommend for everyone, which is really, really simple. And it sounds like you have no excuse not to do this. As soon as you wake up in the morning, place your hands on your belly, you’re going to do some deep belly breath, basically, you’re going to place your hands on your belly. And as you inhale, you feel your belly rise, as you exhale, you feel your belly full. And you’ll do this 10 times. And that’s probably the fastest way to calm your central nervous system and really help with digestion. That’s that’ll take maximum three minutes, so no excuses.

Natalie K. Douglas  29:16  

Excellent. I like that. And I guess one of my favorite ones is yoga. But if you can’t get to yoga, then just doing some stretching, like and some you know, look at look at a yoga yoga YouTube video and just copy what they’re doing. Even if you don’t watch it every time you do it, just remember some of the movements they go through and incorporate the breathing as Kate said. And I think also, if you’re really trying to heal your gut, and you’re doing crazy amounts of high intensity exercise, I’ll probably encourage you to cut back on that for a period of time, just because is another stress on your system. And sometimes that can I guess, stop the healing process from happening as as quick as it could. So just something to be mindful on for anyone who is a CrossFit are doing a lot of training in that regard, or just doing a lot of high intensity training in general.

Definitely. I don’t smoke.

No, don’t smoke. That’s a good life lesson for all

Kate Callaghan  30:19  

well, it’s kind of the biggest, biggest factor in destroying the gut bacteria. Anyhow, I’m listening to the podcast, I’m smoking anyway, because it’s kind of a big health. No, no. And yet you have your free ebook out now don’t need you want to tell us about that a little bit?

Natalie K. Douglas  30:36  

I do. Yes. So I wrote a free a book, which is basically a little mini guide to figuring out what can what different things could be causing your IBS symptoms and a few steps that you can take to eliminate your symptoms. So a lot of what we’ve talked about today is in that book, you can actually get it for free. So why not just jump on to my website, and it will come up as one of those annoying pop ups that everyone loves. And then it will be sent to you. So that’s something that would be really helpful to have on hand and give it a go. Especially if you’re waiting to find a practitioner and you really want to get started in doing some of your own healing, then using those, those steps in the book will help you with getting to that place. So definitely jump on there

Kate Callaghan  31:30  

and sign up.

Natalie K. Douglas  31:33  

Awesome, thanks. Ok. So I guess that’s it for today. Guys, if you could please jump on to iTunes and leave us a review. That would be awesome. And make sure you subscribe. Subscribe. I always say that wrong. Make sure you subscribe. Make sure you subscribe to Apple. Just watch. So jump on there and leave us some love. And we would really appreciate that. And make sure that you leave us a suggestion if you have a topic or a question that you want it to. We’re more than happy to address that too.

Kate Callaghan  32:12  

Absolutely.

Natalie K. Douglas  32:14  

Awesome. All right, Kate. Well, it was lovely speaking to you. And I hope that you’ll have been remembered to pick up your child. Just kidding guys. He did. He’s a good husband. And I hope you have a good day and best of luck with the program. There’s two days on the HA program. I’m really really excited to see how it all pans out.

Kate Callaghan  32:36  

Awesome. Thanks so much. Have a good day.

Natalie K. Douglas  32:39  

You too. Bye.