In Episode 66 of The Holistic Nutritionists Podcast, Natalie Douglas and Kate Callaghan discuss what to eat after giving birth and breastfeeding and share their suggestions for a post pregnancy diet plan.

• The importance of being gentle on yourself & dealing with expectations
• Sleep training
• Foods that can help with adrenals and restoring your body post-pregnancy
• Top breakfast lunch and dinner ideas during this time to help restore your body
• Supplements/herbs for adrenals that are safe with breastfeeding
• Essential oils for stress management/burnout/emotional support
• Exercise – what, when, how much?
• Minimizing the risk of a Graves flare-up post-partum
• Rebalancing Thyroid in Hashimoto’s or an underactive thyroid post-birth 
• What to do if your Free T3 decreases even with increases to food and decreases to exercise + stress?

Intro 0:00
Hello and welcome to The Holistic Nutritionists Podcast, with your hosts Natalie K. Douglas, Thyroid Healer, and Kate Callaghan, The Holistic Nutritionist. Nat and Kate are degree-qualified dietitians and nutritionists, certified fitness instructors, speakers, and authors. If you love unfiltered banter, unedited bloopers, and authentic heart-sharing, then we are your ladies! Now it’s time to sit back, relax, and get ready for our latest tips on living your healthiest life possible.

Natalie K. Douglas 0:34
Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of The Holistic Nutritionists Podcast. Kate, hello.

Kate Callaghan 0:42
Hello. Hello. Happy Birthday for yesterday.

Natalie K. Douglas 0:43
Thank you. It’ll probably be like months ago, or yeah, maybe a month ago once but this episode is released but thank you I had a beautiful day. It was, I just told you all about it. But for those listening, that are interested I had a surprise birthday dinner and I usually ruined surprises but I managed not to ruin this one and I didn’t look terrible. Like you know, I mean, usually it was actually quite funny because usually when I go out to deal with just my family, which is all it was, it was just supposed to be my brother, my mom, my partner, and my brother’s partner. Usually, I’m like almost in my pajamas. But I was still dressed from the day. And I’d been out already and so I looked alright, so it was good because lots of people obviously wasn’t surprised everyone just pulls out their phone straight away. That zoom right up in your face. And I’m like, oh, hey, that’s another surprise. But yes, many surprises and lovely day of actually went shopping on my birthday and I bought some clothes, which I haven’t been shopping in like, a good. Maybe the last thing I bought was my wedding dress. So I just don’t like shopping actually. I got a message and the message lady was so good. I was worried that she might be like one of those like real soft tickly massage people, which is awesome because I looked like she was very sweet and very little. And I was like, oh, this could go the wrong way. She’s like, how do you like your massage? And I’m like, firm, really firm.

Kate Callaghan
To get to me?

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah. And like, so I thought I’d really emphasize it so that like maybe a normal level of firm would be like upgraded a little bit. Damn, she was firm and I was like, she’s like, how’s that pressure? I’m like, it’s really good. Thank you. I didn’t want to like say less because my muscles was so sore or I can message it’s generally my favorite like self-care thingy. What’s yours?

Kate Callaghan 2:43
Yeah, I love a good message. That is one place in town here in Wanaka. That Oakridge that does amazing facials. Chloe at Sanctuary, I love you.

Natalie K. Douglas 2:56
I love a good facial too. I’m always so impressed how they make it so smooth. Like I tried to get Bowen a facial and I think it was more stressful than anything else.

Kate Callaghan 3:07
You know, Nat, because they actually get training. Like specific training. That’s why they good at it.

Natalie K. Douglas 3:16
I know. Well, respect to all the people who give facials who’ve had training because I thought I could just watch like, and remember how they do it to me. And I tried and I’m like, he’s like, like, thanks, darling but could you just be a little bit like gentle, more gentle and I’m like, I was trying so hard to do the the sweeps around the chin and then like, the sinuses and like yeah, not my forte. And it doesn’t help that I have like, weight-lifting looking hands where they’re very rough.

Kate Callaghan 3:48
A little bit of exfoliation in me.

Natalie K. Douglas 3:52
We’re just going to exfoliate the whole time today. So enjoy.

Kate Callaghan
Well, the thought was there. It’s all that counts.

Natalie K. Douglas
Exactly, that’s what I said. And I also got about but to go into a floatation tank. Have you been to one of those?

Kate Callaghan
No. But I thought about going in one next week. I’m in Queensland next week, and they have floatation tank.

Natalie K. Douglas
Oh, my God. Do it.

Kate Callaghan
Is it good?

Natalie K. Douglas
But apparently, you can’t have any cuts or anything because you’ll sting yourself.

Kate Callaghan
I don’t have any cuts. I don’t think.

Natalie K. Douglas
That’s good. Apparently, there’s this some kind of like, I don’t know.

Kate Callaghan
Is it salt water?

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah.

Kate Callaghan
Some kind of water that massage me.

Natalie K. Douglas
I was going to say there’s like a gel that you can put on to like stuff like getting into your cut but anyway. So yeah, I feel like I should go in, like, try it out for me. So then, I could just know what to expect. I feel like I really like it because I love being in salt water. And I love like, like, I find that really relaxing. The only thing I might not like about it is the whole like small space but I’m a small person, and it looks pretty big. So I’m sure I’ll be fine.

Kate Callaghan 5:01
And I think it is really, really, really salty. That’s how you float, isn’t it?

Natalie K. Douglas 5:05
I don’t know, probably, I haven’t really thought about it that much. I’m gonna google it later. Finally, just got the gift. Anyway, that’s really exciting. So, as much as people would love to just listen to us banter for the whole time, I feel like we should probably give them some information.

Kate Callaghan
Probably.

Natalie K. Douglas
We’re talking about fatigue today. And this is something that I reckon we would both see a fair bit because it’s just so so common. And I wanted to start off with the question around talking about when it’s fatigue versus being a little bit tired. And I, my opinion on this is that, I don’t know if there’s like a definition out there, there probably as if you Google it, but when I think about it being fatigued versus being tired. One thing I’ll ask people is, do you still feel tired even after you’ve had a good sleep? And when you think about your day, is there any reason why you can think you’d be understandably tired? And another kind of bit of a differential is probably the type of like when you feel tired, I feel like you just feel like, tired in a sense of all like, I can keep going but I would like to be resting. Fatigue to me is when you feel like you just can’t. You have no reserves to pull from. And a lot of my thyroid patients who have fatigue, often describe it as like a heaviness in their bones, that kind of fatigue, but any degree of any of those things I would still call fatigue and I think it’s a problem. Kate, do you have anything to add there, like that you would use as a differential between being tired or being fatigued?

Kate Callaghan 6:54
Yeah, I would definitely say that, that kind of that feeling in the depths of your body rather than just I’m a bit tired. It’s kind of like everything in your body is just exhausted and you can’t function properly.

Natalie K. Douglas 7:09
Yeah. And what would you say? Maybe we can do a bit of back and forth here but what would you say are the main causes of fatigue that you see?

Kate Callaghan 7:18
So, I work a lot with moms. So the obvious cause of fatigue there is children and lack of sleep. That’s like a very obvious reason for fatigue, but also with moms and new moms, actually not even just new moms but moms in general, the nutrient depletion that I see because moms often don’t have that time or don’t prioritize themselves to replete the nutrients after pregnancy, after birth, after breastfeeding. And then even beyond, they feed everyone first and then they might just pick it food themselves and then don’t actually get the nourishment that they need, both on that micronutrient level. So the vitamins and minerals and antioxidants and the macronutrients so carbs, proteins, fats, and calories. So you know it when I’m working with my hormone clients as well with my hypothalamic amenorrhea clients, calorie depletion is a big thing that I go. I don’t have any energy, so you’re not eating food. So we get our energy from food and from sleep. And if you’re not really getting those things, that’s going to be a big contributor. And, but there are a few other things that I see. So nutrient deficiencies are rife in all people really because our soils are deficient in nutrients. Unfortunately, we have destroyed them through our farming practices. So often we need supplementation to replete our nutrients or eat liver and broccoli sprouts every single day if you can. And then a few other concerns would be food intolerances, specific food intolerances. So some people will eat certain types of foods like histamine-rich foods, and they might feel instant fatigue. If anyone has any gut issues that can contribute, Candida can contribute, constipation can contribute, other hormone imbalances, like adrenals and hypothalamic, I was gonna say amenorrhea. Hypothalamic pituary adrenal dysfunction.

Natalie K. Douglas
Good job.

Kate Callaghan
Adrenal, adrenal fatigue, good lord. There’s too many big words in my head. Get them out.

Natalie K. Douglas 9:31
So hard to adult.

Kate Callaghan 9:34
It is hard to adult. They would be some that I would say are quite obvious ones. If someone also has any issues with insulin resistance so where the insulin is not actually allowing the cells to pull the glucose from the carbohydrate-containing meals into their cells for energy, then they’re going to feel fatigued because they’re not getting the nutrition into their cells, which is floating around in their blood. And obviously, that causes a whole host of other issues, but fatigue can be one of those concerns. Any others you’d add?

Natalie K. Douglas 10:04
You nailed that. I definitely agree with all of those like, and it’s funny, because a lot of people when we first asked that question, are probably like oh, maybe she’s not getting enough sleep but it’s so funny how many people don’t eat enough like, especially now, little world of, I would say women mostly that happens with. And yeah, I would so agree with that. And yeah, I want to emphasize that gut one as well because how like, it’s impossible to get the micronutrients and the macronutrients you need, particularly micronutrients to be honest, when you’re not absorbing properly and when there’s so much inflammation going on. So I definitely, you know, want to emphasize that one. And I love the one about histamine because that’s another one that people kind of don’t know about too much and can be a real game-changer as well. So and the blood sugar, so true, especially if you feel like your fatigue kind of is worse, and then a little bit better and then worse but you find like you’re needing to have sugar or carbohydrates or eat every two hours. For sure that’s a big one. Obviously, the next one that I would think of is an underactive thyroid. And that’s because like that would be one of the main major symptoms across the board of an underactive thyroid, and I think that a lot of us just dismiss it as I’m just a bit tired, because that’s what you know, is kind of just accepted in our society tired and busy that almost glorified. So, like if you’re not tired and busy what the fuck you’re doing? You’re relaxing like, why are you doing that? Like, I even find myself when someone’s like, oh, how have you been? I’m like, oh busy, but good. I’m like, why do I say that, like?

Kate Callaghan 11:55
Yeah, I try and I try and catch myself with that now.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah.

Kate Callaghan
My life is full.

Natalie K. Douglas 12:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kate Callaghan
Full of fun.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes, that’s it. That’s a good one. I feel like they just, maybe if they just someone, maybe when we asked a question we should be more specific. I’m learning about, I’ll tell you later, but I’m learning about men at the moment, like in terms of how their brain work, works. And also, yes, but also really interesting. And also how our brains work as women. And one of the questions that this lady Allison, sort of are listening to, suggest that we asked women is instead of asking how are you because we have this like, in slight kind of natural instinct to tell you what’s happening in every single area of our life, like how our pet is, how our dog is, like, how our child is, how we’re feeling like, ask what are you passionate about right now or.

Kate Callaghan
Yes, I’ve heard that before.

Natalie K. Douglas
And I’m like, that’s good because I am so that person that’s like, that sounds like how are you? I’m like, I’ll just give them a big meta report about all of the things that are going on in my life. But anyway, so I digress. So yes, thyroid function, underactive thyroid, for sure. And I would say, you need to get it tested. And the other thing I’d add to that is, even if you get your thyroid tested, and your results come back as normal, and make sure that you get all of the testing done, as in TSH, free T4, free T3, and antibodies, as a minimum. But even if that all comes back normal, if you still feel fatigued, what I’d say is happening is cellular hypothyroidism, where your thyroid hormones aren’t actually getting into your cell like that’s one possibility and that can be driven from these other different issues. Like it can be driven from inflammation, which can be driven from, you know, stress, lack of sleep, infections, like gut stuff, you know, quote-unquote, adrenal fatigue, all these different things. So, yeah, there’s quite a lot of reasons for it but there’s many, that you can actually, you know, just change yourself again.

Kate Callaghan 14:09
Hey, Nat.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes?

Kate Callaghan
How would someone know if they’ve got that cellular hypothyroidism because that probably wouldn’t show up on bloods would it?

Natalie K. Douglas 14:15
No, it wouldn’t. It’s kind of like a diagnosis by process of elimination. So, what I would do is someone who’s I would absolutely run that thyroid panel. And then I would also make sure that it’s not something else that’s really obvious, like the things you’re talking about in terms of eating enough food, getting enough micronutrients, having enough sleep, managing stress, and then what I do if all of those things were in check, I’d probably make the call. Hi, it’s probably this. But even just knowing that it’s cellular hypothyroidism isn’t enough, because then we want to ask, well, why is it? Why is that happening? Why is my thyroid hormone, why are my thyroid hormone is not getting into the cell, and that’s when I chased things that are a little bit deeper, like blood sugar dysregulation or gut infections, histamine intolerance, because it can cause inflammation. So that’s kind of it’s there’s no test at this stage to determine that. It’s more having a really good practitioner to kind of look at your case and do a bit of process of elimination with that kind of thing.

Kate Callaghan 15:24
And do you ever get your clients to track the basal body temperatures as a marker of thyroid function?

Natalie K. Douglas 15:30
Yeah, I do. I think that it’s really useful. And I actually you, I actually love if anyone’s looking for some instructions on that. Kate, you have a great post on it that I’ve mentioned before but I love your post on your website about this. And I reckon you can just find it by googling The Holistic Nutritionist basal body temperature tracking, and that can give people a good explanation but yeah, I do definitely use that. And speaking of body temperature tracking and hormones and all that kind of stuff. I guess the next question that people are going to be, that you’re going to ask is, well, maybe like, is it their sex hormones? Can sex hormones cause fatigue? And I’d love your opinion on this.

Kate Callaghan 16:16
They can, I wouldn’t say it’s one of the major contributors that I would see but if all of your sex hormones are depleted, and so I say there’s a lot in hypothalamic amenorrhea where you’ve got no period. And often, you’re so depleted that all of your sex hormones so estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, they’re all flatlined. And a big, probably the biggest contributor would be that low testosterone that gives us that roar. You can see my hands in, roar. So, someone, you’re tiger?

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes. But hearing you is enough, I don’t need to say that. So it gives us that get up and go.

Kate Callaghan
Yeah.

Natalie K. Douglas 17:00
It’s actually what I do when I’m feeling like I’ve got enough energy. You’re not roaring then you’re fatigued.

Kate Callaghan 17:17
You’re totally fatigued if you’re not roaring like a tiger. That is your diagnosis right there. I mean, estrogen and progesterone contribute to that vitality and vibrancy as well and feeling good in yourself and emotionally well, but I’d say if your testosterone is low, that’s going to contribute a fair bit to your fatigue. What would you say around sex hormones?

Natalie K. Douglas 17:32
Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think it’s not the most common one. I’d I’d think of, I’d more think as you were alluding to, like, that feeling of like low mood or just no motivation, more related to the sex hormones than a physical feeling of fatigue, except for yeah, definitely the testosterone thing, but I wouldn’t say it’s the most, most common one I see. I but yeah, for sure I see the mood changes when you don’t have enough hormones. I was put on antidepressants when I had hypothalamic amenorrhea because they thought I was just depressed because, you know, they didn’t have any other explanation. But as soon as my estrogen and progesterone levels picked up, I felt like honestly, a completely different person like it was incredible.

Kate Callaghan 18:20
Do you know what I was prescribed by a naturopaths when I had hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Natalie K. Douglas
What?

Kate Callaghan
Testicle.

Natalie K. Douglas 18:26
Oh, did you taken it?

Kate Callaghan
I ate bulls balls.

Natalie K. Douglas
Oh my God.

Kate Callaghan 18:34
I didn’t cook them up on a barbecue. It was a supplemental form.

Natalie K. Douglas 18:36
I wonder, I wonder what a bull’s balls would take like. Do you think sometimes, I think that everything just tastes like chicken. That’s weird but I never really tasted that many weird things.

Kate Callaghan
People do eat them, isn’t it that they, they call it Rocky Mountain something I don’t know.

Natalie K. Douglas
I don’t know. I don’t know. Actually, I was watching some Netflix documentary on this couple that something engagement or whatever and I’m pretty sure she ate testicles. It was like a really like, it was part of like some ceremonial thing. I think. Anyway.

Kate Callaghan 19:11
Well, it really helped with my libido. Like, sign me up. I will eat these bull’s balls. My friend’s photo was quite funny when she came into my house and saw a container of testicle sitting on my bench.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes.

Kate Callaghan
What the fuck is this? Yep. Many balls.

Natalie K. Douglas
Oh, my God, that’s so funny.

Kate Callaghan
Not the fun kind.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah, yeah. Well, I went down the medical route, like because I kind of was not completely into Holistic Health when I had HA and I went down the medical route. So, I got prescribed antidepressants and hormone replacement therapy. And I was only like 19, maybe, oh, my replacement therapy. I mean, it did make my symptoms go away but then I actually went into our naturopath and did the underlying work and actually eat a ball and actually taking herbs. And Kate, actually you were such a big inspiration to me at that time, because when I was trying to eat more, you were also trying to eat more. I remember being on placement with you and looking at your lunch and I’m like, whoa, I can do it.

Kate Callaghan
You can eat the most.

Natalie K. Douglas 20:16
I’m like, is that your food for the day? And you’re like, no, this is just lunch. And I’m like, oh, my God. I can, I can do it.

Kate Callaghan 20:24
Eating all of the food. So, good. So, good.

Natalie K. Douglas
I know.

Kate Callaghan
I remember that. Getting that permission from that naturopath just like you need to eat a lot more food and not more carb was like, all right, bring it. I was like we need to get all the sweet potato.

Natalie K. Douglas 20:41
I know right. It’s almost like, I felt almost like excitement and a bit nervous at the same time because it is like that permission. You feel like a kid in a candy shop, you’re like all of the foods?

Kate Callaghan
Carbs? Love the carbs?

Natalie K. Douglas
But then like, it there’s also part of you that oh, it relates for me. There was part of me that was like, oh my God, I’ve never eat this much food but anyway, now I’m like, I would love if someone just came over and gave me permission to eat some more carb.

Kate Callaghan 21:13
You can give yourself that oh and permission, you know.

Natalie K. Douglas 21:15
That’s true. I’m having a bad day, I’m like, definitely there’s a sweet potato.

Kate Callaghan 21:20
Oh, they just make life better.

Natalie K. Douglas 21:21
Oh, I reckon. Honestly, if I had to choose a food group to live off for the rest of my life, hundred percent would be carbs. No shame. All the delicious foods are carbs, and I don’t mean the processed ones. I just mean like, I bloody love fruit and love sweet potatoes and love gluten-free bread. I just like love, I love meat like, like kind of like, well, I’ve actually banana pancakes, which, although I keep screwing them up, but someone told me to bake them.

Kate Callaghan 21:52
Oh, yeah. Do you know what? So do you know at weddings, how they have your names on the table. For this wedding that I was in France with one of my best friends who is getting married. She put everyone’s names on the table, but she put a little symbol, a little picture underneath everyone’s names to kind of symbolize what they were passionate about. So one of my friends had hockey because she’s an avid hockey player. One had a stethoscope because she’s a doctor. Do you know what mine had on it?

Natalie K. Douglas
Bulls ball or.

Kate Callaghan
A sweet potato. She put a sweet potato underneath my name on the wedding table.

Natalie K. Douglas
Oh, that’s awesome.

Kate Callaghan
That is accurate as fuck.

Natalie K. Douglas 22:27
Oh, that’s so good. I reckon someone would probably put. I seem to get gifted a lot of poo emojis and like I got given like us like at work once, a poo key ring, and one of the poo emojis like that was like a stressful like, that a poo emoji stressful.

Kate Callaghan
Oh, brilliant. Brilliant.

Natalie K. Douglas
And got given a poo book, like a children’s poo book about how, how amazing poo’s are but in an animated way. And I was like, what message am I sending out to? Like, these are just my friends, like. But never mind, that’s okay. A little bit of a sidetrack there, but a good one.

Kate Callaghan 23:07
Let’s go back. Okay, so let’s begin with poo’s, good segue. Can your gut impact your fatigue levels?

Natalie K. Douglas 23:09
Yeah. Yeah, for sure because as I mentioned, you know, the first thing is lack of nutrient, micronutrient absorption. The other thing is that when you have certain types of bacteria overgrown or present in your gut, they released toxins themselves. And those toxins, by nature create inflammation in your, in your system. And anytime there’s increased levels of inflammation, it makes it really hard for your cells to actually function properly. And that’s where the energy is created. So you could be eating all of the foods, all of the nutrient-dense foods but if there’s something wrong with your cellular absorption of all of that, then it’s going to have a massive impact on your ability to actually pull and use energy from those foods that you’re eating. So 100%, if you have any kind of fatigue, I’d be looking at your gut, for sure. And you know, if you feel like you don’t necessarily have heaves, like or any, like we have any gut symptoms at all, I’d be looking at it. But even if you feel like you don’t necessarily have bloating or discomfort, or irregular bowel motions, or abdominal pain or anything like that you’re like no, that’s all pretty good. I’d still work on the gut in terms of I’d be encouraging you to like, chew your food really well, not drink water around meals, have a little bit of apple cider vinegar and water before your, before your main meals. Like rest when you’re actually aging. Like try not to do a billion things while you eat. Because definitely, that’s going to have an impact but yeah, I think gut is honestly one of one of the biggest causes of fatigue, but I feel like because it’s not obvious a lot of people don’t necessarily make the connection. But do you have anything to add to that?

Kate Callaghan 25:14
Yeah, I would also encourage people to look at their poo as a as an obvious sign. I mean, if you’ve got diarrhea, if you notice any undigested food, if you notice an oily slick on the toilet when you do a poo, that’s a good sign that you’re not digesting or absorbing your food appropriately. Yeah, that would be the big ones, definitely, and potentially undiagnosed celiac disease.

Natalie K. Douglas 25:39
Yup. And that’s actually I feel like we should do a bit of a podcast, or maybe I’ll just mention it now. I think I’m finding that there’s a lot of confusion around celiac disease and getting a diagnosis of that. A lot of people are under the impression that just doing a blood test if you’re gluten or gliaden antibodies are negative that it means you don’t have celiac disease but that is not true because that test is, although it’s a great screening tool, it’s not comprehensive, it doesn’t like if you don’t have those antibodies, it’s not doesn’t mean that for sure you don’t have celiac disease, the gold standard of diagnosing it properly is a small bowel biopsy, which you have to do a colonoscopy and endoscopy with that. And the catch with that is at this stage. You know that is the gold standard, I believe that they’re working on trying to develop a, you know, an easier, less invasive tests. But that’s the goal 10 at the moment, but you have to actually be eating gluten for that to show up in your, in your colon. So what they’re looking for is that the microbial like the little hairs that line your digestive tract and looking at them kind of being destroyed a little bit. So it’s really important that you, if you do think that you have it, or you have another autoimmune condition, or you have a very strong family history of celiac disease, then making sure that you’re getting tested properly. I guess the difficult thing is if you’re someone who has already been avoiding gluten, for the most part for a long time, and then you find when you have it, you get a flare-up of symptoms. That the difficult position that I feel like I get put in, I don’t know if you’re the same Kate, is that, you know, if you have celiac disease, there is a big difference between the degree at which you need to avoid gluten compared to if you have gluten intolerance like if you have celiac disease, it is so incredibly important that you’re really thorough with avoiding any exposure to gluten because even little amounts can have a negative impact on your gut lining. And that can actually take quite a long time to heal. Whereas with gluten intolerance, you know, your recovery from that exposure is far quicker and the impact of that gluten is far less. It’s kind of like would be, you know, a transient activation of your immune system, perhaps, and maybe a little bit of intestinal permeability but you can recover from it quite quickly. And so, a lot of the time people get in this position of well, if I want to know for sure if I have celiac disease, because I’m not someone that’s going to avoid gluten like the plague, then you do have to be eating gluten. And that’s really hard because a lot of the time I don’t want to make someone eat gluten again, because it makes them feel so unwell. I don’t know what your thoughts around that Kate but I find that difficult because, you know, if I don’t think that someone is going to avoid gluten, you know, really, really strictly, then I almost feel like it’s my responsibility to be like, well, if that’s not the case, and there’s a chance you have celiac disease, we need to actually, you know, get this accurate diagnosis. I think the gold standard is six weeks of eating gluten but I find that if we can get away with less I find about three or four weeks, but I and I try and get them to eat high-quality ones but I really hate doing it to be honest.

Kate Callaghan 29:12
Yeah, no, I’m the same. And I think it really depends on the client, some I have and they’re like, no, I’m definitely, I can see that gluten doesn’t agree with me, after just taking it out for a month or two and then trying a bit myself, I really didn’t tolerate that but then there are some others are going to go you know, I might just have some every now and then. Because I don’t think people really understand the ramifications of celiac disease. I think people are just like, oh, you know, I might get a bit bloated and might feel a bit sick and you know, have diarrhea or constipation for a bit. And when as I’ve had clients recently and explained to them, you know, if you eat gluten and you have celiac disease, you’re increasing your risk of cancer, increasing your risk of osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease, infertility, and they’re like, oh, really? No one told me that. They just kind of it’s that medical model of just isolating things and focusing on the digestive system and not actually acknowledging the widespread effects of it.

Natalie K. Douglas 30:05
Yeah, I hundred percent agree with that and same same deal. Like I will have that conversation and some people legitimately are like, because I think it’s all about like informed choices, like I’m not going to force you to do anything you want, don’t want to do. But if you’re like if at any stage, you’re considering not being absolutely completely strictly gluten-free, like you have celiac disease, and there’s a chance that you have it, like you need to get that proper diagnosis and tests done. So then you have, you know, there’s not this thing in your mind like, oh, it doesn’t matter if I have a little bit like, I just think it depends on the person. You know, for sure. Like that’s kind of, that’s actually my story as well, I, I have a really strong family history of celiac disease and whenever I am exposed to gluten, which is always are intentionally, I get a very, like obvious reaction. And I have the genetic predisposition forward, as in you can do HLA DQ gene testing, which is just like a genetic, like it’s just a blood test. And I look at if you have the genetic predisposition to develop celiac disease, and I do have that as well. So I had like all these red flags and for me, I was already gluten-free strictly by the time I came to all of that conclusion and I didn’t want to put myself through four weeks of eating gluten because I was already really unwell at that stage and I knew would set me back. So now, I I tell people I have celiac disease, because I truly believe that I do. I just didn’t get the small bowel biopsy done at the right time but every other possible red flag is is there. So but not everyone is going to be willing to do that. Like, I, willing to do that because I know what would have like the ramifications, as you were saying, Kate of have celiac disease if you are eating gluten. But if you’re not someone, if you’re someone that’s because you’re like, oh, no, it doesn’t matter. I’ll just have a little bit then you need to actually do the test properly so that you have that, you know, in your in your hand and you’ve got kind of solid proof that hey, no, I actually do need to be really strict.

Kate Callaghan 32:20
Agreed.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes.

Kate Callaghan
Can you talk now, segue.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah.

Kate Callaghan
We might have to do a whole podcast on celiac.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah.

Kate Callaghan
But can we tell a little bit about potentially oral health affecting fatigue?

Natalie K. Douglas 32:35
Yeah, this is so interesting. And something that I wasn’t really aware of until probably a couple of years ago, when I started to look more into my own oral health and just learning more about it. And it was actually Lewis, Dr. Lewis Ehrlich, who’s.

Kate Callaghan
Dr. Heart.

Natalie K. Douglas
Dr. Heart from Sydney Holistic Dental. And we’ve had him on our podcast, guys. So, go back and listen to that episode. I can’t remember what number it is but it’s only one on dental health so you’ll find it.

Kate Callaghan
It was an awesome episode.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah. And he is really passionate about explaining, like that how the way we breathe affects our sleep. And so I mean, I’m certainly no expert in this, but listen to that episode, because he goes through it. But basically, like, if you are not breathing properly during sleep, or you’re having any kind of sleep apnea, and that can be on a really like, low kind of not obvious level, then your your ability to actually oxygenate your cells and your system is significantly impaired. And that means that although you might be kind of in bed for a certain amount of time and getting sleep, the quality of your sleep might not be there and therefore you’re you’re not going to be feeling like you have energy. So if you feel like you wake up tired, or you wake up with like a dry mouth, if you have been told that you snore, all these different things can definitely have an impact. The best way to go about treating these is go and see a holistic dentist that is going to look at your jaw structure. Look at if there are any signs of mouth breathing, if there are any signs of sleep apnea, you can get sleep studies done. And you know, that’s actually a really, really good tool to see, well how much oxygen saturation and oxygen am I getting in my system while I’m asleep because it is so so important. So I’ll direct people back to that other episode that we did with Lewis. I’ll pop what episode number it was in the show notes for you guys because I’m not sure off the top of my head but that was a really good one or even just go and follow Dr. Lewis Ehrlich on Instagram or his uncle Ron Ehrlich puts out heaps of good information as well. So yeah, have a listen to to that. Kate, the next thing I wanted to chat about is foods to fight fatigue. So this is probably quite broad, but what would you say that are you know, are there any foods that fight fatigue? Like is it coffee? Is it coffee?

Kate Callaghan 35:24
Liver. It’s just liver. Liver.

Natalie K. Douglas
Everybody loves pate.

Kate Callaghan
Come feel good. No, everybody loves pate. Good that we crack ourselves up.

Natalie K. Douglas
It is.

Kate Callaghan
So yeah, no, I’m not joking. Definitely liver, it is so so packed full of B-vitamins and iron, vitamin D, vitamin A and all of the good stuff that is going to make you feel superhuman. So get that stuff in your body.

Natalie K. Douglas
Get in my belly.

Kate Callaghan
Get in my belly. Make pate, minced it up, and chuck it in your bolognese, or in hamburgers. Hide it if you need to. Make liver pills out of it, if you want to not make liver pills and spending a crikey load more money then get pre-made liver pills but make sure it’s organic liver that you’re using please. We don’t store toxins in the liver but liver is where we process all of them toxins. So we want to minimize the the amount of processing the dodgy stuff that liver has had to do. Definitely lots of vegetables, colorful vegetables. So you’re really getting all those vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and mix of raw and cooked veggies. Unless you have any digestive issues in which case, I would say stick mostly to cooked. Plenty of water, I find that when people don’t drink enough water than they are fatigue. Dehydration is a huge contributor to fatigue. So just drink more water. I know that sounds really boring and not sexy.

Natalie K. Douglas 36:44
Yeah, that’s so true. It’s amazing how many people drink like less than a liter of water a day.

Kate Callaghan
Yeah.

Natalie K. Douglas
Oh my gosh, I get that such. I get sometimes that’s just enough to change how you feel. I think one one thing that I find helps really well with increasing water consumption is having like a couple of places in your day where you’re super intentional about it. So for me, when I first wake up, I’ll try and get in like 500 ml’s, which is like half a liter of water because I know that it’s going to be like a period of time before I’m actually having something to eat because you don’t want to be drinking large amounts of water around your meals. I kind of I generally say no large amount of water 30 minutes before and at least an hour after food but yeah, I find like getting up and having a big glass of water or a huge cup of herbal tea or something that is fluid. And then even just setting an alarm for another point in the day that isn’t around meal time to be like a reminder, hey, drink this much water. And then you know if you if you’re being intentional with like about a liter, then unintentionally, you’ll probably get a little bit more and if you if you’re someone who does drink herbal tea, if you’re not then you might have to kind of be more, be intentional with everything. Okay, do you have any like, how do you getting enough water? Are you intentional about it or does it just kind of happen for you?

Kate Callaghan 38:09
I am pretty intentional about it. So I always have a bottle of water with me and I make sure that I’m just always sipping on it. So I think my bottles, maybe 500 ml’s. So I always try and drink at least four of those. I’ll drink a fair bit before breakfast not directly before breakfast. But when I wake up, I just like to drink a fair bit of water, fair bit of warm water, I might add a little bit of lemon into it. Sometimes it’s just warm water, just to get my body started for the day. But I really noticed that if I’m not having enough water, so I often don’t have issues with drinking because I freakin love it.

Natalie K. Douglas 38:44
I actually find I love like good-quality water. So I have a filtration system called Zazen and it is so, it makes the water tastes so good like dumplings. It just tastes good. Like it’s not like has a flavor but it go it kind of is trying to emulate what happens in nature. So it goes through like a filtration system and then it has rocks that have been mined from like, you know, hundreds of meters down in the ocean floor and that puts the minerals back in and then it goes to a tap that has a magnet on it, which changes the structure of the water molecule, which makes it easier for your cells to actually absorb. I don’t know if you, have you ever seen that, I think it was like a Japanese scientists that do like some documentary or something on studying water and how the different structure like structures of water impact its ability to be absorbed into yourselves. It’s really interesting. I’m going to try and find it. I haven’t watched in ages but it’s interesting anyway, yes, water. So back to foods, any other foods besides what you’ve just mentioned, and water?

Kate Callaghan 39:58
For most people, you could probably deal with just eating more food in general, making sure that you’re eating enough carbohydrates unless you have issues with insulin or if you have a polycystic ovarian syndrome. And potentially, if you have endometriosis, you might need to decrease your carbs but for most people having a little bit more whole-food carbohydrates in your diet can help with energy. Conversely, if you have too much carbohydrates that could make you more sleepy, so let’s balance, balance people.

Natalie K. Douglas 40:23
What? Balance? You’re so boring.

Kate Callaghan
Are there anything that you would add?

Natalie K. Douglas
Um, no, not really, I think it’s really dependent on like, I think you’ve covered the foundations. And then I think it’s really dependent on what is causing the fatigue because that’s going to change what your recommendations might be. So, no, I I agree with you. And I think, yeah, I just, I feel like also, really understanding what your blood sugar is doing is it, is it is is really important as well. And I actually sometimes with motivated clients who don’t mind pricking their finger, get people to do like a couple of days of like just looking at their blood sugar stability throughout the day because that can be like a really easy fix as well because I generally prefer that people eat kind of three meals a day as opposed to like, unless they’re trying to treat HA, or they’re struggling with adrenal issues, or they’re kind of you know, pregnant or breastfeeding. But generally, three meals a day, maybe a snack if you’re hungry, or you just have a longer day, so that the digestive system has time to rest. But if you’re not able to kind of manage to go from go for about, you know, four hours or five hours, you know, between meals without your blood sugar kind of really dropping low, or having kind of fluctuations then that definitely would be contributing to fatigue and sometimes it’s as simple as changing the structure of your meals. Sometimes, it’s as simple as you’re not eating enough but I think like more information is is always good. So yeah, I feel like you just need to know what’s causing the fatigue first and there’s lots of different avenues you can use to explore. Explore that. So, I would start investigating if you make the basic changes that we’ve suggested and you’re still kind of not really sure what’s, you know, what’s going on? Kate, next thing I want to chat about is, is coffee, like, is coffee klatch in a bad idea if you’re tired, if you’re really fatigued?

Kate Callaghan 42:31
Yeah.

Natalie K. Douglas
Damn it.

Kate Callaghan
Unfortunately, it is. I think, especially, well again, I guess it comes back to the individual. But if your issues especially are related to any adrenal concerns, then having that coffee is just going to put even more strain on your adrenals it’s going to pump out that cortisol, which is designed to keep you awake in the morning but it’s just going to deplete those levels and over time, they’ll get less and less and less, and you’ll need more and more and more coffee and then you just feel more and more fatigued. So definitely pulling back on the caffeine as hard as it is, in reality, you’re probably going to feel worse for a couple of weeks when you take the coffee out. But after that couple of weeks, it’s usually about two weeks, that kind of sucks. And then after that, you’ll you’ll feel that your energy levels are picking up as long as you’re eating liver as well. No, I’m kidding. Not really.

Natalie K. Douglas 43:28
Oh, that was so crazy. Oh, yeah, actually, the girls at my, a bunch of them in the thyroid rescue program at the moment, are up to the stage of the program where we pull that coffee for a little bit just to try and get a sense of our true energy levels. And yes, support the adrenals a bit and they’re doing so well. And it’s really interesting to see people with thyroid issues, pulling it out and feeling like their energy increases. And I mean, it definitely can decrease as you’re setting up first, and you’re just are like, help me I just needed a coffee. But I always think like with myself, I’m always like, when I get to a point where I need coffee, I’m like, oh, it’s time to back off. Whereas if I’m like, I could have it could leave it. That’s what I’m like, okay, like my system is, is doing okay with it but I still try and have breaks sporadically. Like I bloody love coffee. I definitely think it is so delicious. I love the habit, the ritual, the smell, everything. I’m not, I don’t, I’m not like addicted to the high like the energy boost, I just love it. But for sure, if I let it go too long without having a break or if I get into a habit of having one every single day with no day without it, I definitely notice that I feel like I have less control over my energy levels and I find them waking up and I’m like where’s my coffee. I’m turning into that person like, don’t talk to me until I have my coffee.

Kate Callaghan
So just thinking, now we’re talking about coffee and about coming to the end. But I just had a thought, a potential contributor to fatigue for many people that is not talked about and we will probably talk about it in a future episode because it’s big topic is mold exposure and coffee can be a big source of mold, unfortunately.

Natalie K. Douglas 45:20
Yeah, a hundred percent. So so sure. And I guess is an easy start. If you, I think having organic coffee is one step in the right direction, but certainly not like the whole complete story. So yeah, for sure. I agree with that. I think it’s really important and actually, like even just drinking non-organic coffee that suit, like coffee is really heavily sprayed. And so even starting to look at that could be a step in the right direction, but I just think like moderation with with coffee is probably the best way to go with for most people if you love coffee? Obviously, if you don’t like it, then don’t have it. But if you love coffee, like try to have a kind of yeah, moderate intake of it because then like there are benefits to it. And it is delicious. And it does bring a lot of people joy, but I think too much of anything, especially something that is addictive in a way like is probably not a good thing. But you know, I say that and I’m currently drinking a coffee every day. I am actually, it’s on my on my well actually this morning I’m not, this is my wake of okay, time to have a break. I was just not feeling very motivated to not but now I’m like, I’m another year older and wiser. So now.

Kate Callaghan
How old did you turn?

Natalie K. Douglas
28.

Kate Callaghan
Did you?

Natalie K. Douglas
Yep, that’s right.

Kate Callaghan
I’m like that much older than you.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah, you are. That’s what but I feel like I get called an old soul a lot. Like a lot of people think I’m older than I am. Maybe maybe they just don’t know me well enough because I’m actually caught it between myself to ours. Yeah, anyway, I’m actually the youngest, most of my friends are your age actually. Like I’m not, I don’t think I have maybe like two friends or three friends that are my age and the rest are a lot. Not a lot older, like most of my friends are in their 30’s or 40’s. I’d say.

Kate Callaghan
Yeah, the cool kids.

Yeah, you are.
Absolutely.

Kate Callaghan 47:30
Okay, so should we touch on quickly? So non-food cures to fight fatigue?

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes.

Kate Callaghan
Quote unquote, cures.

Natalie K. Douglas 47:40
Cures, yeah, well, I think sleep is an obvious one, like getting enough quality and quantity sleep. I think managing stress is another really obvious one, I think breathing is also very underutilized tool because it really does help actually oxygenate your cells properly and it’s a form of detoxification and cleansing and it also doubles up as a form of stress management. I think exercise in sensible amounts can also be really, really beneficial. Time in nature, for sure, like, is really restorative and can definitely help with that like getting enough fresh air and sunlight like think of yourself as like a plant basically. Like I think that, I think other things in terms of sounds funny, but like connection in joy and laughter and I guess it’s not directly related to fatigue, but more indirectly related. I think essential oils, but I’m going to leave that up to you to give us some Hot Tips around what we can actually use but do you have any yeah, anything else to add or can you jump into the essential oil side of things for us?

Kate Callaghan 48:50
I would say potentially supplementing as we said that the soils are quite depleted. So looking into a good quality multi and energy supplement, if necessary but essential oils for energy, I’d be looking at peppermint. Peppermint is incredible. Rosemary is really wonderful for that mental fog memory, and then lemon as well, which is really uplifting and energizing. That would be my three picks, peppermint, lemon, rosemary, and Eucalyptus.

Natalie K. Douglas 49:21
And would you, would you defuse these or would you buy them topically, or what would you do?

Kate Callaghan 49:27
I would defuse them. The topical application would really depend on what’s going on. I mean, if someone’s got adrenal issues, then I’d be maybe talking to them about using some basil, and rosemary, and clove over their adrenal glands, maybe some lavender as well. If it’s the thyroid then I might be talking about wild orange and lemongrass. If it’s sex hormones, and we’re talking about clary sage, geranium, Frankincense. If it’s your gut digesting, it really depends, but to actually energize you and pick you up you’re going to be looking at your citrus oils, your mint oils, and then your herbaceous oils as well. So Rosemary, basil, which sounds random to put in your diffuser, but Rosemary’s so delicious. I love it.

Natalie K. Douglas 50:08
My grandma used to have a dog named Basil. Excuse me like, those are my voice. Yeah. And he used, he was so funny. He was a beagle. And he used to poo by putting his bomb against the tree. How weird is that? I’m like, Basil, you’re my man you. You’d like to poop before I do.

Kate Callaghan
That’s weird.

Natalie K. Douglas
I know. I didn’t understand either. He was very interesting. And he used to eat everything, like everything but I feel like that’s a quality of bagels generally, because I seem to hear that I love dogs. Oh, my God, dogs petting dogs. I feel like that.

Kate Callaghan
Yeah, spending time with animals.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah.

Kate Callaghan
And kid’s play.

Natalie K. Douglas
I was like spend time with your kids to manage your fatigue.

Kate Callaghan 50:48
No, no, no, like, just playing not, no, sometimes it’s better to have a break through the fatigue. But getting down and playing with them I think.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah.

Kate Callaghan
Actually quite energizing. I did it to body workout yesterday. And for those of you who don’t know what is a body workout is, it’s just four minutes of exercise, we work for 20 seconds and have a 10 seconds, 10-second rest. So eight rounds of exercise. I did one. I was pretty wired because Ed wanted to be carried the whole way through. So my legs are kind of burning, and I finished one and Olivia was, I want to keep training, we’ve got to keep training, oh my God. I got 32 tabatas it really hurt me and then my butt’s really sore. I don’t know why I brought that up.

Natalie K. Douglas
We appreciate you sharing that. Now before we kind of wrap up, the new thing we’re doing, which you might have forgotten about. And I forgot to remind you about Saga First. But it’s something that we’re loving at the moment. And I have so many things. So I’m the first.

Kate Callaghan 51:41
I think you’re so excited.

Natalie K. Douglas 51:42
I know, I didn’t know which one to choose, I feel so much pressure just for myself. Okay, so I’m going to share the one that I like loved doing yesterday, which might sound a bit funny. But I went through my personal Facebook account and I deleted so like unfriended so many people. And it felt really, really liberating because I think so with social media, generally, I use it for business, I don’t use it for personal stuff pretty much at all. And the reason why I went through and called like so many people also, if someone of my friends is listening, and I’ve told you, sorry, I didn’t do it quite fast. So I’m actually really worried that I’ve like called someone really important. But anyway, it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter, you can just add me back as a friend. But so what I did is I went from like having about 900 friends to about 140. And it just felt so liberating because for so long, I just accepted people as friends and which is like is fine but my intention behind it was more like oh, well if, like, if I set them like what happens if you know I share something on my personal page about my business, and then it’s a potential like connection there. I can help someone in that way or whatever. And I was like, you know what, like, I don’t I don’t want to do that. I want, if I’m going to have social media, I want to know, who I’m sharing with, at least on a personal level, like obviously, in business I mean, I know that I’m sharing with whoever, and that’s fine. But when I on my personal page, I really wanted a place where I’m like, every single person that is there is either a current part of my life or is someone I’d invite over for dinner or is someone that was, you know, a really big part of my, my history. And so I tried to just kind of go with that intention. And I certainly like I definitely deleted some people that I absolutely love. And they were, you know, important in my life at one point, or I just think are awesome people, but they’re not part of my current life anymore in any capacity and haven’t been for a long time. And I’m just like oh, I just want to feel like I know who I’m sharing with if that makes sense. Anyway, it just felt really liberating.

Kate Callaghan 54:03
I thought about posting something just really controversial on my personal Facebook page and then just letting them mass delete me.

Natalie K. Douglas 54:11
Yeah, good one. That would be another strategy. I went with a safer option.

Kate Callaghan
Because my friends, who are really my friends, they’d be like, what’s up, what are you doing? I’d be like, it’s just a tactic.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah. I know. Funny, but it’s so hard. Yeah, I know.

Kate Callaghan
Not the ways. None of your ways, sorry.

Natalie K. Douglas
No, it’s, so yeah. No, it’s okay, we forgive you. It was funny but yeah, it’s not even about like, do I like you as a person? It’s just like, are you currently like part of my little world? Because otherwise like do you even care? What’s going on? Like, you don’t need to hear about I don’t know, me. I didn’t mention anything. So I have not no example to give. But the reason I’ve never shared anything, because I thought about sharing my wedding photos with my friends on on Facebook because a lot of them were there. And you know, when you go to a wedding, you’re kind of like, oh, well, someone took a picture of me, I’d like to say it. But I haven’t shared any because I was like, well, I don’t want to share them with all these 800 and something almost 900 people that you know, I don’t even know some of them anymore at all. But now I’m like, okay, I know every single person that’s there and I’m comfortable with them being let into that part of my my life and seeing all the photos or sharing something like more details. I’m not a really big social media user anyway, in terms of personally, I definitely have in a business sense because it’s a great tool, but I’m just finding that I feel like I’m trying to like have less in my life if that makes sense.

Kate Callaghan 55:51
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a good strategy.

Natalie K. Douglas 55:55
Thanks. Anyway, that’s my that’s my recommendation something I’m I’m loving or have loved. Just just now I have so many more guys so don’t worry. Moving on.

Kate Callaghan 56:02
Well, mine’s not quite as deep and meaningful. I would say I am loving on Netflix series called The Letdown.

Natalie K. Douglas 56:11
Oh, thank you. I’ve been needing something to watch when The Bachelor isn’t on.

Kate Callaghan 56:16
Well, I don’t know if you like it. So, it’s it’s kind of parenthood taking the pace of parenthood basically.

Natalie K. Douglas 56:28
Oh, wait, what’s it called again?

Kate Callaghan
The Letdown.

Natalie K. Douglas
The Letdown. I watched one about parenthood and with moms.

Kate Callaghan 56:36
Was it Workin’ Moms?

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah. It’s so funny.

Kate Callaghan
Oh, good. Okay, were you might like The Letdown then.

Natalie K. Douglas
Okay.

Kate Callaghan
So, the Letdown is an Australian version and Workin’ Moms is an American version. They’re both very funny.

Natalie K. Douglas 56:45
Oh, my god. I’m so watching that because I I’ve really struggled to find things that I can watch before bed because I can’t deal with anything emotionally strong and traumatic. I just want to like be engaged but also have a bit of a giggle not be worried about people’s feelings before I’m going to sleep. So, I feel like that might be a good one.

Kate Callaghan 57:04
Grey’s Anatomy’s always good as well.

Natalie K. Douglas 57:06
But you cry like every episode. It’s it is very emotional. There’s like the angst of like it takes them so bloody long to actually get with the person that they’re supposed to be with them. Like you’re just supposed to be with them. Why are you not doing this?

Kate Callaghan 57:19
That’s always good. It’s always good. Do you recon anyone’s actually still listening at this point?

Natalie K. Douglas 57:29
Well, not. That’s okay. Moving on.

Kate Callaghan
Thanks for still listening. If you’re still there.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah, you’re an absolute trooper. We love it.

Kate Callaghan
One person.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah. They’re probably just lifted on and forgotten to turn it off.

Kate Callaghan
Yeah.

Natalie K. Douglas
Or they’re driving and they can’t pause it.

Kate Callaghan 57:44
They’re stuck somewhere. They pinned under a child. That’s gonna be like. God, make it stop. Make it stop.

Natalie K. Douglas 57:49
Okay, we will, we will. All right. Well, I really do think we should leave it there.

Kate Callaghan
Yeah.

Natalie K. Douglas
And we will yeah, keep coming at you with some more podcast. We are also taking suggestions for the people that you want us to try and interview as well. So feel free to contact us if you’ve got any great suggestions around that. Obviously, they’re going to have to agree to be interviewed by us but we’ll do our best to reach out if you have a suggestion that you just would love us to have a chat with. So, Kate, have a lovely day.

Kate Callaghan
You too.

Natalie K. Douglas
And I look forward to talking with you about absolutely random things shortly.

Kate Callaghan 58:30
Sounds good, Nat.

Natalie K. Douglas 58:32
Bye.

Kate Callaghan
Bye.

Outro 58:34
Thanks for tuning in to The Holistic Nutritionists Podcast. Remember, we love to make the show relevant to you. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to discuss, just submit them to [email protected] and we’ll get them answered for you. Also, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on iTunes and share it with your friend. And if you’re looking for more info about how we can accelerate your journey to your optimal health, you can find me, Nat, over at NatalieKDouglas.com, and Kate, at TheHolisticNutritionist.com. See you next time!