In Episode 13 of The Holistic Nutritionists Podcast, Natalie Douglas and Kate Callaghan discuss natural remedies for anxiety and depression.

• What we ate for breakfast
• The alarming prevalence of anxiety in our society
• How chronic stress wreaks havoc on your system 
• Dietary strategies for managing anxiety
• Two conditions that could be contributing to your anxiety and how to get tested
• Lifestyle tips for managing anxiety

Are you looking for 1-to-1 support and a step-by-step healing process to overcome your:

• chronic gut health issues? Take a look at my signature program, “Gut Rescue” today.
• debilitating Thyroid issues? Take a look at my signature program, “Thyroid Rescue” today

Natalie K. Douglas 0:03
Hello and welcome to The Holistic Nutritionists Podcast. My name is Natalie Bourke, Holistic Dietitian and Nutritionist from HealthByWholeFoods.com.au and with me as always I have the Holistic Nutritionist Kate Callaghan from TheHolisticNutritionist.com. Kate, take two, what’s happening?

Kate Callaghan 0:22
I’m still just laughing that that noise in the background you like it’s cicadas.

Natalie K. Douglas
It is.

Kate Callaghan
For anyone who’s listening overseas, cicadas look they’re like a little insect. They’re actually quite a big insect in Australia, and they’re very noisy, but I think you’ve actually done well at shutting them out.

Natalie K. Douglas 0:40
I have it everywhere, they’re like, and I know like if people are listening and they don’t, they’re probably just gonna think we have really bad sound quality, which we probably don’t have the best sound quality but I can’t control the elements, people, I cannot control.

Kate Callaghan 0:51
It’s not the technology, it’s Australia.

Natalie K. Douglas 0:55
It is true. Gosh, but they’ve quietened down maybe they heard me.

Kate Callaghan
I think I did. Yeah. Okay, cool.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah, they’re tired. Anyway, so what’s, how, what did you have for breakfast Kate?

Kate Callaghan 1:06
For breakfast this morning? Well, I don’t know if I spoke about last time, the nine cups a day veggie challenge that I was doing.

Natalie K. Douglas 1:12
No, you didn’t but I would love if you shared with us that.

Kate Callaghan 1:16
So, Helen Padarin, who is a Nutritionist, Naturopath, and Alice Nicholls of The Whole Daily they put together a challenge which is nine days you had to have nine cups of veggies per day. That was the challenge. Love me a good challenge. And so I was doing that. And now I’ve just kind of continued on not quite as intensely but still trying to get as many cups as I can. And so this morning, if you’re having nine cups of veggies a day basically you have to have veggies at breakfast, otherwise,

Natalie K. Douglas
Otherwise, you, yeah.

Kate Callaghan
You’ve got no chance of catching up, really?

Natalie K. Douglas
No, no.

Kate Callaghan
You failed. No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. But kind of not. So, what do I have for breakfast this morning I had a big plate of sauteed veggies, colorful veggies sauteed in miso paste to that. So, I just mixed up some miso paste in water and toss that in. And then on top of that I had a couple of poached eggs and some avocado and some kimchi and some roll beetroot, which was also part of this veggie challenge. It was amazing. So good. And then I had some of Olivia’s banana smoothie.

Natalie K. Douglas
Oh, nice, it’s good.

Kate Callaghan
But she’s taking to daycare. What did you have?

Natalie K. Douglas 2:26
I, well, mine was nice and exciting. I did have a lot of vegetables as always. So I feel like I would have got at least two cups in there. And then I did actually have some sauerkraut that’s it does have beetroot in it actually but it’s mainly cabbage. And it has like, I think it’s cumin. I don’t know it tastes really amazing. And I also had a leftover lamb chop.

Kate Callaghan 2:52
Delightful. Looks big on your meat for breakfast, don’t you?

Natalie K. Douglas 2:56
I do. It makes me feel really like energy stable throughout the day. So what I often do, if like in summer, I really love making smoothie bowls and making them into a substantial meal. But I prefer having them for lunch, for example, rather than breakfast because I find just having a like kind of meat or chicken or something like that based breakfast with lots of vegetables makes me feel really compact really focused throughout the morning. So that’s kind of what I do I kind of reverse, reverse the roles of what people would probably consider normal.

Kate Callaghan 3:37
I like it. No, no, I think that’s a good idea. I think we what we perceive is breakfast, we always perceive breakfast foods, as you know, cereal and toast. And it’s like, it’s really just another meal. You can just see it as similar to lunch and dinner.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah, totally.

Kate Callaghan
And have meat and veggies. That’s what floats your boat.

Natalie K. Douglas 3:53
It does. It really does. And I actually have removed eggs for a period of time. I think I spoke about this on the podcast before but I’m undergoing some investigations to see if I have an autoimmune condition. And what’s actually what I’ve actually been doing lately is following an autoimmune paleo protocol. And I have, there’s probably been one or two things that or probably one thing that I’ve kept in that isn’t strictly on there, which is cacao powder sporadically. But I’ve actually found it to be really helpful for me, it’s not something I’d recommend unless you had a need for doing that. As you know, I don’t think that you need to be that restrictive unless there is a clinical need or you know, you’re suspecting an autoimmune condition. Or if you’ve got inflammation in your body of some kind that you’re really wanting to get under control fast, and it has really worked for me, which is awesome. But it means that I can’t have eggs, which was the point of that whole spiel.

Kate Callaghan 4:56
For now.

Natalie K. Douglas 4:57
Yes, for now. But it’s been interesting because it’s forced me to get more creative with breakfast. So it’s really, I have no problem eating like chicken or even fish for breakfast, which I think at the beginning of changing the way I eat, like a very, very long time ago, breakfast was the hardest meal for me to change because I was a big cereal and toast person.

Kate Callaghan 5:23
What did you have? What was your go-to?

Natalie K. Douglas 5:24
I used to love, I had a few cereals that I loved. But I used to love whole bread with banana and honey and skimmed milk.

Kate Callaghan 5:34
Same, oh I have rice milk.

Natalie K. Douglas 5:39
Oh, funny. And I also used to really like Just Right, the usual one.

Kate Callaghan
Oh, yeah.

Natalie K. Douglas
But yeah, so and I love, this I love toast with ricotta and honey. Because my mom, it’s her favorite food pretty much. And I just used to eat it when she ate it, which was every morning. So I used to have both cereal and toast at one point.

Kate Callaghan
Nice.

Natalie K. Douglas
Times have been changed.

Kate Callaghan
It ever changed.

Natalie K. Douglas
Now before we do get started because we are going to be speaking about something that’s not related to cereal at all. But we’re going to be speaking about anxiety today. I do have, I want to read out our disclaimer. So the advice given in this podcast is not intended to provide medical advice or to take the place of medical advice or treatment from your primary healthcare physician. The facts and information offered are based on a combination of scientific evidence, clinical practice experience, and personal experience. So nobody take what we say and run with it straight away without consulting someone. Anyway. So

Kate Callaghan 6:50
Yeah, I think with, with anxiety is that it’s probably good to get a multi-disciplinary team on board. So you’re not just trying to do things yourself and get outside help.

Natalie K. Douglas 7:00
Absolutely. I completely agree with that. So first, I actually wanted to share some stats that I was looking up the other day that I found really interesting and alarming and do have something to do with anxiety. So they are relevant, I’m not going to be making another irrelevant statement. But I was looking into this. And the stats actually show that about 75 to 90% of visits to primary care, primary care physicians are due to acute or chronic stress. I was like whoa, and then I also found the National Survey of Mental Health and Well-Being found almost half of Australian adults met the criteria to the diagnosis of a mental health disorder at some stage of their lives. And within that, anxiety was actually the most common affecting over 14% of adults in the 12 months prior to the survey with women more effective than men. And I thought to myself, like that’s such an alarming statistic. But at the same time, it’s really not all that surprising with how much pressure there is on us, and also how much pressure we put on ourselves.

Kate Callaghan 8:23
Yeah, definitely. And yes, as I was saying before the podcast, you know, the trigger for wanting to talk about this in the podcast was because so many of my clients are suffering from anxiety at the moments and that aren’t come to me for anxiety, they’re coming to me for something else. And then I asked about them on, do you suffer from anxiety? And most of the time they say yes.

Natalie K. Douglas 8:43
Yeah. And I have very similar experiences, there are a lot of my clients that do suffer anxiety. And I think as well, I do definitely see it being reported more in women, but in saying that I’ve had lots of male clients that have had anxiety, it’s just I feel like it’s not spoken about as much. Which is sad, because they, I think speaking about these kind of things actually really helps to just move through, move through the periods when you are feeling really anxious.

Kate Callaghan 9:24
Yeah, I would 100% agree.

Natalie K. Douglas 9:26
And I think stress is something that does really contribute to anxiety quite significantly and stress, you know, coming from any kind of area. So you know, we have work stress, we have the stress of having to keep food on the table for families, we have stress of having to keep up with fashion for some people or you know, look a certain way, or have the latest stuff or, you know, make an appearance at all these social events. I’m definitely not talking from personal experience because I’m not fashionable, and I’m not, I don’t socialize a whole lot. No kidding. Not about the fashionable business though. But you know, there’s a lot of pressure on us and you know, the pressure we put on ourselves is obviously huge as well as, you know, physical stress that a lot of us have, well, well lot of our clients, Kate have very rigid exercise routines that they try and adhere to. And that’s just another form of stress. And I guess that to explain a bit of the science behind why that’s so detrimental and why something as seemingly, I don’t want to say simple but as common, I guess as anxiety could lead to all these other conditions. It, I think it’s important to actually point out to connect the dots for people. So I’ll try and explain it as best that I can. But basically, chronic stress dysregulates the HPA axis, which is we’ve spoken about that before, but it’s your hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis. So it’s like your brain, which your hypothalamus pituitary, then your adrenal they’re all connected and communicating with each other, to regulate your stress response in your body. And also, chronic stress dysregulates your sympathetic nervous system, so your fight or flight kind of response. So basically, it decreases their activity and contributes to many disease states, including anxiety. However, it can also include things like depression, cardiovascular disease, gut issues, cognitive impairment, diabetes, asthma, autoimmune disease, impaired, weren’t healing all these things. And if we are chronically in that flight or fight response, eventually it also leads to a huge disruption in your normal circadian rhythms and release of things like cortisol and other stress hormones. So we’ve spoken in the past about how detrimental having chronically elevated cortisol is. But as a reminder, and of special interest to our audience, in particular, it can impair fertility, it can lead to gut issues, it can cause you to hold on to excess body fat around your abdomen, it can lead to sleep disturbances, which obviously we all know have a lot of a lot more consequences as well in itself also can lead to lowered immune function and can trigger or worse an autoimmune conditions, such as Hashimoto’s, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. And there is actually some emerging evidence, which suggests that under chronic stress, the body may develop what’s called glucocorticoid receptor resistance. So GCR for short, so to make sense of that, a lot of you have heard of insulin resistance. And it’s kind of it’s, it’s the same mechanism, but happening in a different part of the body. So it’s like someone’s knocking on the door, but no one’s opening it. And basically, you know, if that resistance means that the body fails to put out the flame of chronic stress induced inflammatory responses that happen in our body, which leads to the onset and progression of lots of inflammatory conditions. So I know that might all sound a bit, you know, confusing. But, you know, the point of the I guess the message behind all that is that a constant anxious state regardless of what is causing that, leads, you know, you know, we’re pretty and even more importantly, we can do things to change that. And I think it’s about a holistic approach to managing anxiety and managing stress in our life. So you can’t just cure anxiety by drinking a coconut milk, kales, blueberry, turmeric, spices, smoothies with chia sprinkles, you need to address things like sleep, stress management, play, social connection, pleasure, movement, your environment, everything needs to have some, some of your attention in order to create a space where, you know, maybe anxiety doesn’t completely disappear. But your ability to manage it and to move through feelings of anxiety, which I think we all have to a certain degree. I think that is really important. It’s, it’s about, hey, how do I develop strategies, to A, stop this from happening from a trigger point of view and also B, how do I manage, manage that when it does come up?

Kate Callaghan 14:56
Definitely, good summary.

Natalie K. Douglas 14:58
Thanks, like a bit confusing not even for me, but

Kate Callaghan 15:02
No, no, it was good. I think it made sense. Yeah.

Natalie K. Douglas 15:05
So I guess what will be more helpful for everyone is if we give them some strategies to manage anxiety. So I thought maybe we could start with in terms of nutritional recommendations, if someone is undergoing a lot of anxiety or is being diagnosed with an anxiety type condition, and wants to know how it is that anything that could potentially help manage some of these feelings that I’m feeling through a dietary perspective. And it’s not saying that this is going to cure anxiety but how can you support, support your system basically, do you have any particular foods that you would recommend to someone or not recommend to someone Kate?

Kate Callaghan 15:54
Sure. So I think the biggest thing to include, if you are prone to suffering from anxiety is protein, really good quality, animal-based protein it’s going to provide you all of the amino acids, so amino acids are the basically the building blocks of proteins, it’s going to provide you the amino acids that are necessary for your neurotransmitters, so your brain chemicals that will help to calm that anxiety. So things like GABA and serotonin, which is going to help keep you calm and help keep you happy. If you don’t have enough protein in your diet then you don’t have this should building blocks to get those neurotransmitters pumping. And you will suffer from low serotonin, which is going to leave you in kind of with a bit of a dark cloud of you, if you feel that, and low GABA as well it’s really important for helping with keeping you calm. So yes, it is as simple as just getting good quality protein. Again, again, it’s not, it’s kind of here have this superfood, just you know, eat some eggs, eat some good quality grass-fed preferably organic red meat, eat some chicken if that’s what floats your boat, eat some good quality fish, preferably oily fish so you’re getting those omega-3 fatty acids, the essential fatty acids, which can also help with anxiety and depression in there. Just getting a variety of good quality, highly bioavailable proteins. And yes, you can combine your vegetarian protein sources to get quote-unquote, complete proteins, but they’re not going to give you the abundance of those amino acids like tryptophan that you’re going to get from animal proteins. So if you’re suffering from anxiety, and you’re vegetarian or vegan, depending on how important this is in your life, and you’re not getting anywhere with any of your other strategies that you’re implying maybe think about it consider that in your life. And it doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to eat meat all the time. And obviously, we, you and I that we always encourage sustainably, humanely, ethically sourced meat as well.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes, definitely.

Kate Callaghan
You can’t get health from a sick animal. So definitely taking that into account. Other things, there’s a really strong link between as you mentioned Nat gut health and anxiety and depression. And there’s a lot of research around this but it’s kind of a chicken and egg situation we don’t, we’re not 100% clear on whether it’s the anxiety, depression, causing the gut issues, or the gut issues causing the anxiety, depression or a bit of both. But from my professional experience, I’ve seen that helping to heal the gut has also helped with overall mood and helping reduce those feelings of anxiety. So everything that was spoken about before about gut health, fermented foods, bone broths, not going too low carbohydrate, getting a good variety of vegetables in there, getting plenty of fiber, avoiding things like too much-refined sugar, alcohol, avoiding smoking, smoking, absolutely obliterates your gut bacteria, and just really nurturing those little bugs in the belly. And if you do have those severe gut issues, Nat has an awesome e-book, so you can check it out.

Natalie K. Douglas
Thanks, Kate.

Kate Callaghan
Oh, yeah, Nat, no worries. No worries. And the final thing that I would suggest is look at your progesterone levels, especially if you’re a female, and I suspect most of our listeners are female.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes.

Kate Callaghan
All two of them.

Natalie K. Douglas 19:28
Your mom and my mom.

Kate Callaghan 19:30
Yay! Thanks, mom. I hope my mom knows if I have a podcast.

Natalie K. Douglas 19:34
Really, I make my mom listen to mine, it’s like, weekly homework.

Kate Callaghan 19:41
I don’t know. So progesterone, progesterone, one of your sex hormones, we call it an anti-anxiolytic hormone. So it helps to reduce anxiety when you’ve got sufficient progesterone levels around. So especially if you notice that you feel extra anxious in the week or two, leading up to your period, then that could be a sign of low progesterone if you track your temperatures or you know when you ovulate and your luteal phase so the time between your ovulation and your menstruation is low. Ways to bring up progesterone levels, vitamin C, and stress management.

Natalie K. Douglas 20:24
That’s awesome. I love it. That’s really. No, that’s really helpful. And I would add, just to point out and another interesting factor people that you know, quite a lot of your serotonin, I think close to 90% is actually made in your gut. So I think it’s really important to address underlying gut issues in order to help yourself heal. Because if you don’t have that, then like, it’s kind of like, the other things will help but until you really fix the underlying gut issues, you’re not going to maximize your ability to heal. So I think that is really important. And all those points you made Kate, I would completely agree with the only thing I would add would be magnesium, I think magnesium can be really helpful. But, you know, it’s, it is a little bit difficult to get enough through your diet in for a lot of us. So usually, and this is just what I personally recommend, usually I do recommend people supplement with magnesium if they are experiencing anxiety or depression because it does, basically stress depletes magnesium. So it is really helpful to sometimes add a bit of a boost in that way as well. And it can help with sleep too. So I usually recommend people take it at night with their dinner. In that way, it’s going to help promote sleep as well, because a lot of people who have anxiety often find it difficult to fall asleep due to a racing mind, or they maybe waking up frequently throughout the night, as well due to a few of the hormonal dysregulation is happening in their body. But I think that’s a great tip that you gave about the progesterone and something that people can, as you said, track their temperature and get a bit of an indication of whether they are ovulating and, you know, therefore producing progesterone and of course you can test it in blood as well. But if you guys are wanting to do some DIY noninvasive testing at home, then that’s an easy one to do. And I think we have spoken about that in the past. And it’s definitely there’s definitely a blog post up on Kate’s website about how to track your basal body temp.

Kate Callaghan 22:45
Yeah, on that note, if you’re not ovulating, you’re probably, you’re not going to be producing sufficient progesterone. So we need to ovulate and release the egg from the follicle which then becomes a corpus luteum and that secretes progesterone and warms the body up to prepare for baby. So if you’re not ovulating, then you definitely don’t produce enough estrogen. Sorry, progesterone.

Natalie K. Douglas 23:04
And the pill doesn’t count. The progestin is what’s in the pill. And it is not the same as progesterone produced by the body like it, it’s just not even the right same chemical structure. So we have talked about this in the past too, I believe.

Kate Callaghan 23:23
Yeah, yeah. And Lara Briden has a lot of info on this as well.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah, she does.

Kate Callaghan
We’ve also mentioned that she has. That she’s amazing.

Natalie K. Douglas 23:32
She’s very amazing. Can I just say I love the name corpus luteum. If I could call my baby corpus? I would, but it sounds too much like, like what’s a corpse? It sounds like corpse, so I don’t want to because yeah, that’s a dead. That’s, yeah. Okay, moving on.

Kate Callaghan 23:49
When when you when you get pregnant, you actually need to run these names by me. And I will say yes or no because otherwise, you’re going to end up with a child that gets ridiculed. You know, there was a boy, you know, high school, his name was Wayne Kerr. I’m not even kidding.

Natalie K. Douglas
That’s really funny.

Kate Callaghan
I’m not kidding. And he always gets caught, got caught up to the Principal Office. So as always having a loudspeaker, Wayne Kerr, Wayne Kerr, please come to the Principal Office. I’m not joking.

Natalie K. Douglas 24:22
That is actually hilarious. Oh, I can’t wait to share that story with someone, especially a boy, because I’ll probably be more likely to laugh it.

Kate Callaghan 24:29
Sorry, there’s no image to a joke. Let’s get back on track.

Natalie K. Douglas 24:31
Sorry, if anyone, if Wayne Kerr is listening, we’re really sorry.

Kate Callaghan 24:35
Same, Mr. Kerr.

Natalie K. Douglas 24:37
All right. Speaking of anxiety and stress. Poor guy. Anyway. Alright. So that’s, that’s the basics of our food recommendations. Although I would add, I probably would avoid caffeine, if I was experiencing anxiety, or at least give it a go and see if it makes a difference to you or not. I actually find a lot of my clients who have anxiety do feel extra anxious. If they have coffee, some of them can have one cup a day and they’re fine. Other people just stay away from so away from it. So, do experiment and see how you feel. A few other things I would like to flag with people, just from a how like how else can you investigate this point of view as in, are there any underlying conditions that come to mind for me that I would be checking a few of my patient and we’re suffering from severe anxiety and one or two of them that I would mention would be pyrrole disorder. And if you, it’s basically a condition in which the body depletes B6 and zinc quite heavily and it is easy to measure in a blood test, it will I think it’s time a year on test actually, anyway, you can measure it through your GP and you can also it’s also quite easy to treat and the treatment of it will be based on your results as in terms of how severe the disorder is for you but the two nutrients that you would most likely be prescribed or are always prescribed is B6 and zinc but I don’t recommend anyone goes out and just start supplementing with high doses of either of those without blood test or urine test or a confirmation of that, but it is something to flag for everyone to investigate if they want to. And also MTHFR is another which is a gene basically that you can also do a blood test for so we have spoken briefly about that in the past and it was also on definitely on, Kate, you have got that on your website, don’t you? Like a post about?

Kate Callaghan 26:49
On MTHFR?

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah.

Kate Callaghan
Not, not yet. It’s in my, it’s on my to-do list, because I have HTMFR.

Natalie K. Douglas 26:53
Yes, me too. Anyway…

Kate Callaghan
You’ll get them one day.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah. And there’s lots of information on the internet as dangerous as that might sound. But don’t.

Kate Callaghan
Ben, BenLynch, MTHFR.net is where I would go.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yes, that’s true. That’s a good resource. So just something else to flag. Because I think it’s always important to know where else you can look. Okay, so well, we’ve talked about we’ve like taken up so much time talking about Wayne Kerr.

Kate Callaghan 27:20
We could talk about more, sorry, sorry for talking about Wayne. Sorry, Wayne.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah. Sorry, Wayne.

Kate Callaghan
We should probably mention that, as you mentioned, that social connection, getting out, and spending time with friends. You know, laughter really is the best medicine, daily stress management, finding your own practice that you find calming. So whether that’s just deep belly breathing or meditation, if you want to go down that route, or yoga can all be really beneficial. So don’t just focus on the food, exercise as well can be helpful for anxiety. So getting, getting out and doing some appropriate exercise for your body.

Natalie K. Douglas 27:58
Yeah, I agree. I think all of those things are really important and truly finding what helps you and I think what’s key to managing anxiety is to, as you said, have a daily routine, a daily thing that you do, or few things that you do that help you stay calm or help you stay grounded. And don’t just do them when you’re feeling bad. Do them every day. So it’s a habit that kind of prevents the onset of that anxiety. And also, I really do feel like practicing things like gratitude and mindfulness, and even yoga and meditation, those things. If you do them daily, and they become a habit, you will also find that when anxious situations come up, you’ve kind of got an, I guess, an easier access to how to calm yourself down because it’s something that you are used to doing every single day. So I really do think that it’s a matter of finding strategies that work for you. And being consistent with those strategies, I personally have found that that’s what’s helped me the most when I’ve suffered from, you know, mild anxiety in the past, I found that making daily habits and not just, as I said, not just doing them when a problem comes up. But really making it consistent has made the biggest difference.

Kate Callaghan 29:29
Perfect.

Natalie K. Douglas 29:31
And that’s our summary on anxiety, lovely people. So Kate, do you have anything you wanted to mention to everyone before we head off?

Kate Callaghan 29:43
Just a reminder that my book, Holistic Nutrition is out and available and that is going to mood, and depression and anxiety and how to nourish yourself well for that in a holistic way. If you’re listening from the states we’re launching next next month, so you’ll be able to get it then. And then I think we’re actually putting it on Amazon as soon as it’s launched in the States so that will be available worldwide.

Natalie K. Douglas 30:08
That is really exciting. That’s awesome. And there’s also an abundance of info on progesterone and hormones in there too. So pretty much everything is covered. So I would highly recommend that people head out and get that or buy it online, however you want to purchase. And also I wanted to mention, as I think Kate already mentioned it, but my e-book is on sale at the moment on my website, Healing Digestive Discomfort. So if you do have any gut issues, then I would highly recommend going and checking that out. You can see what’s included in it. On my website, there’s quite a comprehensive description of what’s included and you can find out whether you think would be something that would help you. So that’s all from us today and we will be back in a forth next time with some more discussions that don’t include Wayne Kerr and please do send us any topics that you want us to discuss as always.

Kate Callaghan 31:16
Yay!

Natalie K. Douglas 31:20
All right. Have a lovely.

Kate Callaghan
So, I have to save the yay, for us.

Natalie K. Douglas
Yeah. That’s cool. Oh, wow. This is going well. Let me, let me say goodbye first then you can, yay. So thank you Kate and have a lovely day.

Kate Callaghan
Thanks, Nat.

Natalie K. Douglas
Bye.

Kate Callaghan
Bye.